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| tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard http://www-.luthiersforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10101&t=41120 |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
Ok, I got done slotting fingerboard today... I realized a few things: 1. If you got a good workout after cutting three slots and needs rest, the fret saw is dull and needs to be replaced or resharpened. The process should be effortless with little to no binding. If the blade is dull it will be very difficult to pull the blade through and you'll hear a lot of chattering, in addition the blade will get very hot. 2. That stewmac "Sheffield Steel" fretsaw isn't very good despite costing a pretty penny... The saw was dull from cutting one fretboard and probably needs sharpening after slotting one fingerboard. 3. To sharpen your fret saw, clamp it in a vise, and flatten the top (to level the teeth) by rubbing it against a stone the opposite way (away from the teeth). Then take a dremel cut off wheel and touch off every teeth until it's no longer flat at the top... See woodgears.ca for more info (he sharpened a bandsaw blade this way). It's not the most elegant way to do it but it works, and results in a sharp fretsaw every time. First few times I did it without leveling the teeth but after a few times you will need to do this... I don't have any file that is small enough to get between the small teeth. 4. You can use a regular miter box for slotting fingerboard if you somehow close off its kerf first so that a fretsaw will fit snugly without slopping or binding. If I got to cut a bunch of fingerboards for production or commissions then maybe I should go with power slotting... its not bad when the blade is sharp but as it dulls cutting fingerboard becomes as difficult as cutting steel. Are those tablesaw fret slot blades any more durable than the Stewmac fret saw?? |
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| Author: | Colin North [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:02 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
Don't know about a dremel wheel, but "real" saw files are not expensive, e.g. at $4.50. http://www.amazon.com/Nicholson-Triangular-Without-American-Pattern/dp/B001R1X058 Fret saw as you know is a cross cut, and saws for different cuts need sharpened differently due to varying geometries of the teeth. Proper sharpening, with correct geometry, will make a world of difference to the performance of a saw. Even the "Sheffield Steel" SM - that's what I use, resharpening now and again. They say a picture is worth a thousand words, so here's the best part of an encyclopedia - sharpening video (3 parts total)http://www.workshopheaven.com/tools/Sharpening_video.html Fret slotting should be almost effortless - the saw does the work. If you're sweating after 3 slots something's wrong. Use candle wax on the blade to reduce binding as you cut. Ordinary mitre box (modded as you suggest) would be fine. Or make your own, you can cut the slot with the fret saw to ensure blade is a good fit. I haven't used power slotting, but have heard the forum sponsor's blades seem to be very durable. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:26 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
The fret saw has no set that I can see... Which made things simple. Amazon.com doesn't ship to Taiwan and they look like any small triangular file, but the teeth has a more acute angle than the triangle file and no files in the market seems to have a smaller angle. |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:07 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
FWIW I usually need to sharpen my fret saw every few boards. Two or three ebony boards and it's getting dull. I use bees wax as a lube sometimes when needed. I have a saw sharpening vise, which is quite different than a regular vise and use slim taper files. You should only need to joint the saw, or flatten the teeth every dozen sharpenings or so, not every time you sharpen. It's a skill that needs learned. Especially if you are going to work with handsaws. Tooth geometry is very important too. Cross cut saws get sharpened differently than rip saws. Get the angles on the teeth wrong and it won't cut worth spit. It will also get dull really quick. Sounds like that may be your problem. |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:10 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
Forget the dremel. That's how to butcher a normal hand saw. Fine for doing a bandsaw blade a couple ot times, then you throwaway. There's a very easy way to file/sharpen saws if you don't mind everyone being done rip cut. You place the file in a gullet, let the file find it's own rake angle (or use an aid) and file straight across. On a saw with teeth in good condition then that file stroke might just consist of the one single stroke. Do every single tooth like that, no need to skip teeth or turn the saw around. It's the DIY version of saw sharpening but it works to get saws sharp. The difference between doing it that way and filing crosscut is marginal. The crosscut will cut a touch better across the grain and will result in a touch less break out. It's very small change though. If you really want the ultimate edge, learn to sharpen them to the textbook. No need to level teeth on a fairly new, good condition saw. You are just removing metal for the sake of it and making things more difficult. Level teeth after the saw has been 'touch sharpened' a few times and then only when it needs it. The LMI Sheffield saw is a good one. It just doesn't come very sharp. The gauge of the saw plate is correct for standard fret wire. I think it's 0.5 mm's. Some saws are made of plate that is 0.6 mm's - that's too thick for our purposes and will only lead to binding. When sharp the LMI (or Stewmac) will cut as good as any premium saw that you care to name. It's just made of steel, saw steel, neither too hard nor too soft. I'm almost certain it's made by Thomas Flinn. There are only two saw makers left in the UK and I have a strong suspicion that it's not made by the other, Atkinson Walker. |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:19 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
Oh BTW. There is currently a campaign going on to get the manufacturers of saw files to improve their product. Over the years the quality has dropped somewhat. I have a few types from the known makers and I'm not impressed with any of them. I do have a couple of very old stock files made in the UK - probably 40 or 50 years ago. The quality difference is clear to see. |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:33 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
I don't know why they have to sharpen a hand saw after a few boards. I probably get 20 + before mine needs sharpening. I know Ebony is pretty hard on edge tools but we are only sawing to a depth of 2 mm's !! Everyone thinks that sawing fret slots is hard. It's not, it's very easy with the right saw. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
I will get the benchtop tablesaw and blades, when I start getting lots of comissions to where time saving is necessary. |
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| Author: | Rodger Knox [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:12 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
I've got both of the StewMac fretsaws, and the Japanese saw is much, much better. |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 11:30 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
Michael.N. wrote: I don't know why they have to sharpen a hand saw after a few boards. I probably get 20 + before mine needs sharpening. I know Ebony is pretty hard on edge tools but we are only sawing to a depth of 2 mm's !!. I have very high expectations of sharp. Most others I have met try to work with dull tools. It literally takes 5 minutes for me to sharpen up my saw, why work with a tool that is not in tip top shape? |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 12:39 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
My saw isn't dull. I sharpen saws myself. If I was struggling to cut fret slots after 5 or 6 boards, guess what I would do? |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 2:38 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
Michael.N. wrote: My saw isn't dull. I sharpen saws myself. If I was struggling to cut fret slots after 5 or 6 boards, guess what I would do? What is that? Your tools are dull long before you start to struggle..... And I never said I was struggling, I said my saw was losing its edge after about 3 ebony boards. A cleanly cut slot holds the fret better. Maybe that's why so many need to glue their frets in? PS, here is a link to most of what any one needs to know about sharpening a handsaw. http://www.vintagesaws.com/library/primer/sharp.html |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 3:51 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
I glue frets in because I use thin boards - 4 mm thick. The very end of the board easily cracks at that thickness when hammering in frets. Not only that but a slightly wider slot means that you don't get backbow, even fretting off the Neck. Nothing to do with sharpness of the saw. Anyway. Let's leave it at that. |
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| Author: | dzsmith [ Tue Aug 13, 2013 6:45 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
I'm a cheap son of a gun and I use a $4.00 Zona hobby hand saw. I use the one with a 0.022" kerf. I've done four boards with one saw, and have a backup saw. These are cheap enough to throw away. I used the saw to cut the miter slot for a good fit with the saw. Not the most elegant way to do it, but the slots are cut just fine. If I was doing production work, I'd buy the table saw blade and a notched rule. |
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| Author: | Jeff Highland [ Wed Aug 14, 2013 1:23 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
Rodger Knox wrote: I've got both of the StewMac fretsaws, and the Japanese saw is much, much better. +1 I found the regular stewmac Sheffield saw unusable, the Japanese one is great, sawing is effortless |
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| Author: | Mike Lindstrom [ Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:05 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
When I can't use my tablesaw, like when slotting a multiscale, I use a Japanese pull saw. I guide it with a small block of wood with a couple of magnets epoxied in the face. I can clamp it down anywhere I need to. The Japanese saw is plenty sharp, and if it gets dull replacement blades are fairly cheap. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:09 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
I ruined the fret saw trying to sharpen it with a file... the angle is all wrong no matter how small the file it is... it's way too obtuse. So now I either have to find a new blade or buy a new fret saw... problem with japanese pull saws from other woodworking website is they never tell you what the kerf is, it could be too big or small for fret slots. I'm contemplating the Japanese fret saw but is it really worth the price? |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:37 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
Zona saws might be an option if you can find one with the kerf wide enough. Otherwise you can set them and Zona saws can be sharpened, at least the one I have can. Adding set is a bit more problematic than taking away set but it can be done with either a saw set or a punch. Don't know about the Japanese saws though, their teeth might be hard point. |
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| Author: | arie [ Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
imo the "Sheffield" saw sucks. mine was improperly set and dull from the start. it cut oversize, and the bearings on my lmi mitre box ground the brass rib to useless in short order (3 fret boards in fact). i bought the sm "dozuki-like" saw and what a difference. clean, fast, on size cuts, and very easy to use. imo, for me it's not sensible to rework a saw blade (sharpening, re-setting the teeth, etc..) as i'd rather just focus on making guitars. sending it out for maintenance is fine though, and i'm not saying it's a bad thing to put some love into a saw, it's just that for me, it's not something i could charge a buyer for like "hey, i spent an hour adjusting my saw to make your fretboard -pay me money" to me saws, files, drills, and router bits & endmills are commodity tools. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Wed Aug 14, 2013 11:45 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
I am seriously considering just ditching the hand slotting altogether and get the stewmac blade and a cheap benchtop tablesaw for slotting... but I fear that I might need the manual fret saw to deepen a slot and I doubt you can use the tablesaw blade to do that. |
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| Author: | dylan [ Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:03 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
It sounds like a lot of the trouble people are having with dullness may have to do with inferior steel. A good backsaw should stay sharp through many many fretboards, and other tasks as well. There's a lot of good makers out there today: Wenzloff, BadAxe, Gramercy, etc. And good antique user saws as well. They can be expensive, but if you use a crosscut backsaw for other purposes, it could be worth the investment. Mine certainly gets plenty of use. Japanese pull saws are wonderfully sharp at first, but you can't sharpen them, and the cost of new blades really adds up over time. |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Thu Aug 15, 2013 12:42 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
It's NOT the steel. The steel is standard saw plate. IT'S THE SHARPENING!!!! |
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| Author: | B. Howard [ Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:43 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
Another issue that plagues out fret saws and causes them to dull rather quick is the lack of set. To cut a .020" slot the teeth do not get set like a true cross cut saw, this causes the blade to build more heat in use which in turn leads to the edges dulling faster. A proper saw filing vise is also needed to sharpen. If you do not hold the saw right at the gullets the file will just skip across the hardened steel of the blade rather than cut it and sharpen the teeth. To my knowledge Japanese style blades cannot be sharpened conventionally, that is the main reason I do not buy them. |
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| Author: | Tai Fu [ Thu Aug 15, 2013 4:57 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
So do I just get the tablesaw blade and sharpen them with a grinding wheel when they get dull? how many boards can you cut before they get dull? Or perhaps there's a good crosscut saw out there that cuts at the right kerf for fret slots? |
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| Author: | Michael.N. [ Thu Aug 15, 2013 5:20 am ] |
| Post subject: | Re: tips and tricks for hand slotting fingerboard |
Look. This is not rocket science. The answer to the 'problem' is pretty simple. Most western saws that cut on the push stroke have saw plate that is too thick for our purposes. 0.6 mm saw plate will cut our slots but it will bind horribly because there simply isn't enough 'room' for some set. That's partly why the Japanese Saws suit fret slot cutting. With Japanese saws the cut is on the pull stroke and the blade is held in tension. That allows them to use thinner steel - typically 0.3 or 0.4 mm for the type of saws we are referring to. With that gauge cutting a slot at 0.6 mm, it will cut freely and never bind. Very few of the Japanese saws can be resharpened and those that can tend to be mighty expensive. So you either buy a Japanese saw suitable for the fret slots and accept that you are using throwaway blades or you buy a western type saw. With the western saw you will either have to send it out to be resharpened or learn to sharpen it yourself (not difficult). You will also need to buy the saw with the correct gauge saw steel i.e. 0.5 mm's. Some candidates are: LMI, Stewmac Sheffield Saw. 0.5 mm saw gauge. Comes dull, in good old Sheffield tradition (it's how they used to be sold, deliberately) Veritas - 0.5 mm saw gauge. Comes very sharp. No depth stop. Should be easy to work around. Kerf a bit too wide but easy to alter. Zona - Thin enough gauge but will need more set. Not so easy to do. There are probably numerous other candidates that I don't know about. At the end of the day if you are using western type saws it is well worth your time learning how to set/sharpen them. There are plenty of videos on saw sharpening on youtube, including one that goes on for an eternity. All the information you will ever need. Once learned it's there for life. To 'touch up' a saw will take you 5 minutes once you have a bit of skill. It's not that much different to learning how to sharpen a chisel. Just practice on a cheap junk saw. Lot's of old saws kicking around for next to nothing. Just don't try it on a hardpoint! Start on something near to 8 or 9 TPI. Move on to 14, 15, 16 TPI is as fine as we need for our fret slots. No need to go to the superfine teeth. The Veritas is 14 TPI and leaves a smooth enough cut. There. Done. End of rant. |
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